If you want the collectivity to rise very high, we should first of all get a few individuals rise very high. Then that realisation of the individuals is shared by a large number of people and then large number of people can rise up. This is how the universe and the world develop: this is the mechanism: that’s the meaning of Vibhuti. Vibhuti concentrates in himself, then rises up, he becomes a leader and by his presence others are benefited.
Question: The other day I went to hear Swami Dayanandji. And he said that prayer is free will. I did not understand very clearly.
Actually first of all a prayer arises from you not under compulsion, if it is a genuine prayer, it rises up from your being. In a certain sense it is out of joy, all prayers are movement of joy, necessarily. It may not be in every case so because one is very much troubled, then also prayer comes, but there is a joy behind it because there is a feeling that by prayer you will get a hand of help and that which gives you joy inwardly.
So, fundamentally all prayers are movements of joy and nobody can be joyous artificially, just as nobody can be painful artificially: all pain is sincere pain, you are very sincere in your pain experience; you cannot say that well! I want to be pretending to be painful and I am painful. When you are really painful, you are sincerely painful; similarly when you are really joyous, it’s a real joy, a sincere joy. Both these experiences are sincere; it is only the middle terms which can be artificial. But basically the true joy is a free joy; there is no compulsion in it.
Now, secondly all prayer is an expression of an aspiration. There is either a demand for something, to rescue you from pain, or it can be for gaining something. Either you are painful therefore you want pain to be removed; or you are having a state of a want therefore you want ‘want’ to be overcome. Or you have a desire to move upwards. Or finally you may need nothing excepting the joy of relationship with the Divine: there is no demand that this should happen or that should not happen; it is simply a state in which there is a joy of meeting the Divine; you don’t demand anything from the Divine, you only give yourself; as a result of which there is a joy of union.
In any case there is a kind of an aspiration in all the four kinds of prayers. All aspiration is a manifestation of a will; therefore if somebody defines prayer as ‘an expression of free will’, it would be quite good, except that contrary is not true: free will, expression of free will need not necessarily be a prayer. In the prayer there is a new ingredient which is that of ‘a sense of submission’. In every sense of prayer there is an admission or a confession that one to whom you pray is superior to you and you want help from him. But in every exercise of free will, it need not necessarily be so. So, all free will is not prayer, but all prayer can be defined as an exercise of free will.
Question: Actual physical pain, the body pain, does it cease to impact you as you move upwards, or you can disassociate with your body more easily?
That is true, that is true. One can more easily bear the pain. But that may not be a kind of a criteria whether you have risen up or not, it depends on the kind of pain. Like Sri Ramakrishna, He had the pain of throat cancer, so merely because He was in pain does not mean that He has not risen high. Ramana Maharshi for example, he had cancer of his arm, he was in great pain and he used to groan the whole night , so…
Comment: Disassociation is easier?
Even disassociation is helpful but it is not a permanent disassociation, that capacity if very, very high to completely come out of it. You can have many experiences of disassociation from pain, for long hours, but again you come down. These are examples already with Sri Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi, even Christ was in pain in his agony, on the cross, agony of Christ is very famous in fact, it disassociate Himself…the bodily experience is a part of the movement upward, because it is out of that pain that aspiration rises very intensely to go upward, so you are not minus out from that, you can conquer it in a great way but not necessarily you can so conquer it until you reach a very high level. Ultimately that pain can be transformed into delight. Instead of feeling pain, you feel a very great delight. In fact even ordinarily, there are alternations between pleasure and pain and pain can become pleasure and pleasure can become pain. So, ultimately the intensest pain can be ecstasy in fact. So, shall we start now?
Question: Just a little question…regarding the pain…when has reached the stage of delight, the pain has turned into delight only then the real work can be done or it can be done at lower stages?,
No, all work is being done through all these experiences: the agony of Christ is also a manifestation of the work of the Divine, even through that in fact how many people in the world have been transformed because of the agony of Christ: so it’s a transforming force. Everything that is thrown into the sacrifice creates a fire which moves upwards. So, pain as well as pleasure, or joy all that is thrown into the sacrifice creates the fire which moves upward.
Question: So, the real work is basically throwing that agony into the fire, to be able to disassociate to the extent that you can really do the real offering…,
Yes, it is not you.
Comment: It’s the Divine who is doing the work.,
Yes, that’s right. Correct.
Comment: So, through Christ, crucifixion, the work was that compassion came into this world? After all that brutality, after all it was his agony that created compassion in this world,
…Quite right, humanisation of humanity.
Shall we start now?
We have actually arrived at a very important stage when we completed chapter n°15. Now, chapter n°16 is a transition towards the revelation of the supreme secret of the Bhagavad Gita. It is there that the real answer to Arjuna is provided. So, we shall revisit again Arjuna’s question, so that we understand the answer better.