Socrates and Plato - Session 14 (13 September 2001)

I don’t know if you had time to look at the second paragraph of The Life Divine. Anybody looked up, nobody looked up. Have you looked up Anandmayi? Yes, tell me,....

Good that is the beginning and then up to the synthesis comes where…. I think we have to revise this paragraph once again. I think tomorrow you do one thing, let us all have a copy of The Life Divine and we shall revise it, the second paragraph of the The Life Divine tomorrow, just to understand the electrical. Alright.

Now we proceed further. Plato inherits the mysticism of the past (I don’t know if you understand the word mysticism? What is the meaning of mysticism? Yes, good.

Mysticism is an attitude and experience which is rooted in intuition that is mysticism. It’s an attitude and also experience, attitude and experience rooted in intuition that is mysticism. So we are saying that (Plato inherits the mysticism of the past but moulds it in his rational receptacle. (It is like a solid bowl you might say receives light from the sun and reflects it back for our purposes. So it is a receptacle, Plato’s mind is like a receptacle which receives light from spiritual experience but his mould is a rational mould so it turns it into a rational light, the spiritual light is turned into a rational light by his receptacle that is Plato.)

Plato inherits the mysticism of the past but moulds it in his rational receptacle. He himself was deeply influenced by Socrates and in his highest heights he understands, May communicates with the supreme and most mysterious spiritual reality. But it is through mind that he reaches the summit to capture that reality. Indeed, Plato is essentially the Mind or Thought reflecting and drawing upon the treasures of Intuition. In consequence, he stands out as a thinker presiding over the new dawn of Reason but having at his back the splendour and glory of the waning age of Intuition.

We had done this paragraph last time when I had come during the last visit so I am not dilating on this paragraph more than merely reading it out but it is very clear that Plato stands out in the history of thought as one who glows upon the intuition but sends out to the rays of the reason and he presides on the rational movement of the West. I don’t know if you understand the word Reason, Rational, Reason? What is the meaning of rational and reason? When we are saying that Plato is a rationalist, what is the meaning of a rationalist, just as we defined mysticism— an attitude and experience rooted in intuition, similarly we must ask what is a rationalist? Think about this word for two minutes and then try to answer this question: what is a rationalist? Plato inherits mysticism of the past but he moulds it in a receptacle, in a mould which is rational. Now mystical is an attitude or experience rooted in intuition or in spiritual experience. Reason on the other hand is ……. Blank to be filled up.

When we say it is rational what is it exactly that we mean by rational? To be just. Rationality is justice. According to this definition this is a good answer and we can analyse it further. What is justice? What is it to be just? I had once told you that Plato’s book called ‘The Republic’ is entirely written to define justice in the whole book. The substance of the book is the answer to the question: What is Justice? And his answer was justice consists in assigning the right place for each elements that is presented to you. Anything is presented to you, you assign to it a right place that is according to him Justice. Assignment of elements in their right places and in the right relationship that is justice. If there are five fingers and have different heights now justice consists in putting the right finger in the right place. If you put the wrong finger at the wrong place there will be injustice. Similarly if you have one kind of a design of placement of chairs then in that design putting every chair in its right place is justice. If you put the wrong chair in the wrong place, it is injustice. If you expect from the child what you expect from the adult is injustice. You should expect from the child what is to be expected from the child, you should expect from the adult what is to be expected from the adult that is justice. If you have done what is called a wrong action and to reward it with a big prize is injustice. If a wrong action has been committed then the reward for it should be that which corrects its wrongness so that it becomes the right action, it is transformed into a right action that is justice. To give to the meritorious the results of merit is justice. I am now speaking to young students if I were to lecture as if I am talking to big philosophers that will be injustice. I must talk to young students in such a way that what I speak is made accessible to their minds and their development that is justice. Maybe if this audience was full of big philosophers I would have not even put the question: what is rationality? This question would have been redundant or irrelevant. It was something to be understood automatically but to these young students I can put the question, I can dialogue with it, I can play with it actually and derive a right conclusion. I have only so far tried to answer the question—Justice. To put different elements in their right places is justice. But I have not yet answered the question what is Reason? This is a good element to approach the idea of reason. First of all intuition is connected with experience whereas reason is connected with concept. If you examine the whole totality of your being you will find that there is an element of experience in you and there is an element of concept, conceptualisation, power of concept, power of ideation. You have ideas in your mind now wherever there is ideation there is the operation of reason so the basic definition of reason is it’s an activity of ideation but that is not a full definition, it is only the beginning of the definition. Rationality is an activity of ideation which conceives, this word is important not experiences but which conceives the object in the form of a concept. In intuitive experience you have an object but the object is experienced not conceived, it is experienced. In rationality the object is conceived, is caught in a concept. When I touch this rod it is an experience, similarly we have intuition. But when I have an idea of the rod I don’t have the grip and the touch and the certainty of the rod but still I have an idea of the rod. So when I catch the rod not by experience but by idea it is a rational activity. So there is an ideation which grasps the object in terms of ideation in the form of a concept, even this is not enough this is only the second step of the definition of reason. Reason is an activity of ideation which grasps the object in the form of a concept so as to understand the object, grasp the object so as to understand it and by understanding we mean in which the meaning is seized. This is a new word which I am introducing now, in which the meaning is seized. All ideative activity is actually seizing of the meaning, where there is no meaning grasped there is no reason, no understanding. It is only when the meaning is understood that you can place every object in its right place that is why justice is involved in the rational movement. When the meaning is grasped, when the object is grasped in the meaning then every object that you see you can put in its right place because you understand the meaning of each one. So Betina’s answer was correct when she said reason is justice or to be just but the analyses of this answer is required and we perceived that reason is an activity of ideation in which the object is grasped in a conceptual form so that the meaning of the object is seized this is the full definition of reason.

If you like you can write down now so that later on you can look up what we have arrived at. I’ll speak slowly so that you can write it down. Reason is an activity of ideation in which the object is grasped in the form of a concept in such a way that its meaning is seized, the meaning is seized. It is only when the meaning is seized that its right place is decided and to put objects in their right places is justice that is why reason is a movement of justice. I spoke very fast, no? That its right place is determined. To place different objects in their right places is justice therefore reason is a movement of justice.

Now from this you should not conclude that intuition is not the instrument of justice, intuition is also a movement of justice but the method is different. In intuition the right place of an object is grasped by experience, in reason the right place of an object is seized by concept. In both the cases the conclusion is the same, justice is obtained. An intuitive personality also is just, a rational personality is also just but the intuitive person puts things in their places by experience whereas rationalists put things in their proper places by concepts but there is a difference still. In experience you have a greater certainty, in concept you have a lesser certainty. When I touch this I am quite sure I am touching, there is certainty, if I have only an idea about it, it is like a photograph certainty is much less it depends upon the quality of the photograph, it may be a faint photograph, it may be a sharp photograph. A good philosopher is one who tries to get the photograph as sharp as possible but still it doesn’t get that certainty which you can get in experience. The highest concept is the sharpest photograph but not amounting to an experience, it may touch the level of experience but falls short of it. It becomes experience but ceases to be rational it becomes intuitive. Right, good. So in the case of Plato he was the child of the mystic but the father of reason he presided over the movement of the rationalist approach to reality. Alright this is the explanation of this paragraph, now we go forward.

Although he is a disciple of mystics, his life is not moved by any religious motive or fervour. But the lack of this motivation is amply compensated by his large and wide and rich mind, high artistic genius commanding creative expression, and an intense dynamic nature expressing itself in concentrated efforts at the realization of a sublime and ideal order of existence on the earth.

These three sentences, these three phrases that I have used give you a description of Plato’s personality, three phrases I have used. First, he has a large and wide and rich mind; second, a high artistic genius commanding creative expression, he is supposed to have written the best possible prose in the history of the world. Even now unsurpassed as far as the beauty of the beauty of the prose is concerned, so that is his creative ability, his power of his expression like an artist. An artist may paint but also an artist can write, mere painting is not art, mere writing is not an art. Painting becomes an art if ….., writing becomes an art if …. We have put a blank and you have to fill up. When painting becomes an art? Painting can only be a copy not a painting, writing can be a clerical writing of an essay, you just copy out it’s not an art. Painting is an art when you create a form; all painting is nothing but painting of forms, different kinds of forms, shapes, sizes, proportions. So all painting is an art if the right form, a form is created which expresses the meaning that you want to express then it becomes an art. An artist has a meaning in his mind which he wants to express. How does he express it? By drawing a figure or a form but that form should be exactly expressive of the meaning that he wants to express. You have seen for example a beautiful painting of the Buddha. I don’t know if you have seen it in the visitor’s centre where this painting is portrayed. It’s a painting of the Buddha; the painting consists of three figures. There is a figure of Buddha, the form of Buddha then there is a form of Yashodhara the wife of Buddha, a second form and there is a figure of the son, young son and the figure of Yashodhara these three figures are in the painting. You could have put these figures in any way you like and the good artist is one who has something to convey to you, is there a message to be given through the painting? You are not an artist unless you have a meaning to convey. Now the artist who has done this great painting, one of the greatest paintings of the world. The painter wants to show first the greatness of the Buddha, the surpassing greatness of the Buddha. He wants to show that Buddha is the supreme personality. Now what kind of form will you give to express supreme personality? You know there are some artists who want to show that Christ is supreme now how do they express it? by not showing the face at all they draw the figure of Christ but they don’t paint the face at all because according to them the moment you make a figure, you limit it, that which is supreme is limited, so they say let’s not paint the face of Christ. That's one way of showing supremacy. Now here this painter has a different approach he says I want to show the supremacy of the Buddha, how does he show? If you see the painting he decided the proportion between Buddha and Yashodhara. As compared to Yashodhara, Buddha’s size surpasses so high that in the painting you have a huge figure of Buddha and a very small, proportionately smaller figure of Yashodhara. This is how he puts justice—the right thing in the right place. That which is so great, the size of Buddha is so high and the size of Yashodhara is so low, not merely that there is a gesture of Yashodhara and a gesture of Buddha. Buddha stands like Himalayas unmoved, immobile, calm, absolutely unruffled but the gesture of Yashodhara is that of supplication, submission, a tremendous sense of modesty and humility that’s the gesture of Yashodhara to show I am nothing before this great, huge, massive personality and this is further strengthened by the third figure of the son, even a smaller figure in which the mother makes a gesture to show the greatness of the Buddha. There is a gesture that is simply so beautifully done that you feel that Yashodhara is explaining the supreme greatness of the Buddha and how just as she submits and she is so humble, similarly he should be so humble in presence of the Buddha. Now this meaning is conveyed merely by the three figures that are the mark of a creative artist.

The meaning is conveyed by forms, by placing them in a particular manner and by gestures of a certain kind that is the mark of an artist. Now similarly if you are a writer then how do you write an artistic expression for that we should read Plato, one day we should read Plato and read his prose writing and see how beautifully he writes and communicates his ideas, supreme ideas expressed supremely. So that when you read the greatest mark of writing is that when you read you must experience, you go beyond concept and begin to experience. That is the mastery of the art of writing. So this is a second quality of Plato: not only his mind is large and wide and rich but he has high artistic genius commanding creative expression and third an intense dynamic nature expressing itself in concentrated efforts at the realisation of a sublime and ideal order of existence on the earth. You may have great ideas and you remain quiet, you may have great ideas and you are dynamised to see that these ideas are realised on the earth. You may be only watching the world that is one way of being but you watch the world and change the world that is another way of being, a greater way of being. Merely to watch the world is quite easy, you can see television all the time but to change the world order you find something is wrong, you take out the wrong and plant something new which is beautiful that is a greater being; Plato was like that. He saw the world to be in a very bad condition then he realised what is the ideal order and he tried his best to see that that ideal order is established, even if he failed so what? To make an effort, to make an attempt that is the greatness that is what Plato did. So these three expressions you must remember in your mind to describe Plato. A large and wide and a rich mind that’s the first description of Plato. The second is the high artistic genius commanding creative expression, second aspect of him; a mind and creativity and thirdly dynamic ability, dynamic effort to realise on the earth a sublime dream, sublime ideal the combination of these three elements makes Plato’s personality.

In his early youth we find him planning for a political career. It was only because he found that the then political conditions would not permit him to be useful to the state that he changed his mind. The death of Socrates put a seal on this change and made him decide finally for the life of a professional philosopher. But even then he did not remain merely an armchair philosopher. He established in Athens an Academy for training and imparting to students a comprehensive education; (just as we are now doing in here establishing an academy for training and imparting a comprehensive education so he did in his time establish an academy.) and in due course this Academy became a great center of learning where students came from many parts of the civilized world. It supplied to the Greek states many scholars, statesmen and individuals of high culture. He laid the foundations of this Academy so deep that it lived for hundreds of years until Justinian disestablished it.

It is like creating a centre of education here and imagining a future for hundreds, hundreds of years if it can continue to live. That is called the dynamic power of one man who establishes something powerfully not easy to be disestablished. It remained alive for years, hundreds of years until Justinian, now Justinian is a word I leave it with you, you will do research, you look up the encyclopaedias or reference books and probably tomorrow you can tell me. Write down a short note on Justinian. Who was Justinian, who he was, where he lived, when he lived, what he did, what is he famous for? You answer this question tomorrow.

He was so deeply concerned with the future of humanity that he speculated on the problem of an ideal order of existence and came to the conclusion which he set forth in his Republic: (the following paragraph is one of the most famous paragraphs in the history of thought. you should master this paragraph, read again and again because it is the most important paragraph in human history. This is what he says :)

Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from these evils—no, nor the human race, as I believe—and then only will this our State have a possibility of life and behold the light of day.

This is one example also of his expression in prose, how beautiful is the prose of Plato. How he describes his great vision. I shall read again since it is very important to do justice to it. We should read twice, thrice so that in our reading we may say we have done justice to Plato’s great thought. Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from these evils—no, nor the human race, as I believe—and then only will this our State have a possibility of life and behold the light of day.

Tomorrow when I come here I’ll give you ten minutes to write a summary of this paragraph. I’ll not take time now to explain this paragraph, I’ll see how much you read or understand, write a summary of this paragraph. You’ll have the art of summarising. To write a summary is one of the best ways of understanding so this is one exercise I give you and I’ll give you here in my presence, I’ll see how you summarise this paragraph. if you have questions on this paragraph you ask me now for that purpose I read once again the paragraph so that you follow it step by step. There are three main sentences in this. One is that philosophers should be kings or kings should become philosophers. These are two sentences. And those who are only kings but not philosophers and those who are philosophers but not kings, they should be set aside. So there are three main sentences. philosophers should become kings or kings should become philosophers and those who are only kings but not philosophers and those who are philosophers but not kings they should be set aside they should not be allowed to interfere; only when this situation is obtained then only the evils of society can be met.

You know if you read Mother’s small write up called ‘Dream’, I don’t know if you have seen it? Have you seen it? The Dream by the Mother there she has said where money shall not be the sovereign Lord, right? This is one idea which is very important. Second, a place where students do not study for passing examinations and obtaining certificates,—it’s a dream. Mother is in search of students who are not seeking to get examinations, they are not afraid of the future and Oh! Unless I have a certificate where shall I stand in the world? No, a certificate is not a crutch, you are not a lame person, you should be able to stand on your own by the quality of the knowledge that you possess, wisdom that you possess,—it’s the dream. Then thirdly she says it is a place where there would be only one authority, the authority of Truth. These are the three important statements that the Mother has made in this dream. Authority not of any human being, not of this person or that person but of Truth, wherever it may be,– a child may be truthful, the truth which is expressed in the child is the sovereign. It may be a young person, it may be an old person, it makes no difference; what is important is the Truth, the authority of the Truth. This is the vision that Mother has given is so great but this vision also is great, you must be able to admire it simply because it is not so great as Mother’s vision, we should not underestimate it. It is a very important vision.

In fact Mother also said somewhere that you should have seven or eight individuals of intuitive intelligence, she did not use the word philosophers; she used the word people who have got intuitive intelligence they should be the guides of this society, new worlds that we are building. It is almost like saying that philosophers should be kings but philosophers are only conceptual whereas those who have intuitive intelligence have got experience so it’s a higher degree than of philosophers. So Mother says not only philosophers should be kings but people who have got intuitive intelligence they should be guides and guide only when they embody the Truth not otherwise. Authority is of the Truth not even of these intuitive people. So when a person reaches a very great height one begins to conceive an ideal order of existence. What should be the ideal society, how people should live, by what they should be guided, to whom they should have allegiance, whom they should submit to these are the questions which are asked and answered. So Plato had risen to such a great height that in one sentence he has given his vision: ‘Either philosophers should be kings or kings should be philosophers’ and those who are only philosophers but not kings and those who are kings but not philosophers they should be set aside. When you obtain this condition in a society then the light of the day will be seen, evils of society can be cured. Right, so tomorrow when you come you just write down these three sentences, I’ll be satisfied.

philosophers should be kings—one sentence or kings should become philosophers,—second sentence and thirdly those who are only philosophers but not kings and those who are kings but not philosophers are to be set aside then the society will be able to remove evils. Alright, this is a summary I am telling you in advance so now you remember and tomorrow the first exercise I’ll give you is to give you a summary of this paragraph.

Now I’ll read for you once again. Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from these evils—no, nor the human race, as I believe—and then only will this our State have a possibility of life and behold the light of day. Alright, I think we stop here today and we shall start with this paragraph tomorrow morning.